Curse

Scrimbul · Mar 29, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I recently came into the leader position completely by surprise because my current guild's leader was addicted to Diablo 2.

Don't worry, this isn't a recruitment thread, but basically we booted many of the constant PvErs that were not in an officer position out of the guild because we could essentially count on zero ability for them to show up on demand for PvP.

Due to the size of the guild I suggested we stick with TA so that the guild could learn tactics and the difference between crap builds and good builds on a small scale with no real pressure while we shoot for 32 members to eventually try to get the foot in the door in GvG.

Then I realized while scheduling a TA match this weekend:

I have no clue what TA guilds do.

Seriously. Do they set match goals or what? I could do that easily, and we're still hopping from one public or borrowed TS server to another. I still have trouble getting everyone in the guild to get TS installed regardless of whether they have a mic or not.

But I could use some insight from some TA guild regulars as to what are some red flags I should be looking over in the guild, the quickest way to unlock a profession for my guild members versus grinding PvE real quick to go cap an elite we just need, etc. We're trying to become the PVP guild of our alliance.

I also am pretty much AFAIK the guy that reads the forums. I find I have alot of patchwork metagame knowledge and can still explain why healing line sucks ass as a monk for PvP. Short of a Wikisheet many people in my guild as of yet are uninterested in studying the metagame in depth, which leaves me in the position to interpret it and ask people to tweak builds accordingly.

So for a TA themed guild, how should I be organizing matches/goals, what are some builds that I can examine for a historical TA metagame and what would be the best way to cycle members through faster? I refuse to spam recruitment in allchat like some noob GvG guild in RA or some idiot monk with 2 gajillion faction looking to guest. I just need some pointers from some officers and leaders for keeping and mantaining a guild on the small TA competition arena level.

Blame the Monks · Mar 29, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

I have no clue what TA guilds do.

In a nutshell, win glad points by consistently dominating TA. If possible, win with style by playing interesting and unique builds. That's about it.

Its no different than a GvG guild except instead of a ladder and tournaments you have your titles and respect of the TA community.

moko · Mar 29, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

TA guilds suck. TA guilds die quickly. TA guilds have a very boring guild-being.

they, obviously, wow, dont be shocked now, PLAY TA! by "playing TA" i dont mean, playing it for fun when 4 people are on - i mean actually farming gladiator points for your title. most dont care if its lame or original, they just farm.

some even make their own builds - but most prefer to simply steal.

ive tried a ta guild - its hard and not worth the effort, really. it gets boring easily. rather have an 'all-round-guild' and TA most of the time rather than being TA 'only'.

on a sidenote, the current ta meta is, lame. it is hard to win if you dont actually have good players - high ranked gladiators are already in a guild and will probably not join one, leading to many losses for unexperienced teams which will lead to rage. >_>

in the end, most TA guilds arent even being respected, they are just a bunch of lamers in everyones eyes that suck at "high-end pvp" so they TA only to think they are good at the game. ive heard this often, experienced this, and its pretty sad, but true.

Vermilion · Mar 29, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Yeah I think what mokone said is pretty accurate..Any guild that pvps will probably also TA somewhat regularly, but can gvg and HA. TA guilds can't/won't do much else, from what I've seen and my own experiences.

Btw, itd be a lot better for unexperienced players if Hardcore TAers weren't douches. Seriously if you fall into that category and you win, just say gg or nothing at all. Really getting tired of hearing "l2p" by Kame.

tomcruisejr · Mar 29, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

1 TA team + 1 TA team = 1 GvG team

Scrimbul · Mar 29, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

We're not going to stay in TA forever. We just flat don't have enough people in the guild yet that are around enough to do anything else. Furthermore I'm not going to set foot in HA given everything I've read about the mess, and what's more, I *agree* with the people who had been playing since beta/proph and those who left when it converted to 6v6.

We actually do have a build we ran Wednesday evening that doesn't involve spirit spam, IWAY, BoA sins or SF eles. I'm just trying to cement coordination. If I can show the game is easier to win against alot of the run of the mill teams of ANY PvP type with just basic telling your teammates what is needed, then I'll get to the point that people will start giving input on builds and I don't have to do all the thinking for everyone.

Vermilion · Mar 29, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

1 TA team + 1 TA team = 1 GvG team

Why would there be 8 people in a TA guild who would want to GvG? I mean sure you might get bored of farming glads eventually..but I doubt gvg would be the first choice. Besides that you can Flist TA easy.

Dzan · Mar 29, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Most TA guilds are GVG guilds with 5 or less people on at any given time imo. Speaking from experience of currently being in a "TA guild" we don't farm points by any stretch of imagination. Sure, we get a lot of glad points, but we play to have fun primarily. We will rarely play the same build more than 10 wins in a row, and by the end of the night we play downright ridiculous builds.

Icy DS · Mar 29, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

we could essentially count on zero ability for them to show up on demand for PvP.

Maybe if you were half way decent they might find dropping their pve missions to play with you, but obviously pve is worth more to them than pvp with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

learn tactics and the difference between crap builds and good builds on a small scale with no real pressure.

crap builds lose, good builds win. there, you have learned everything you need to know about the difference between crap builds and good builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

while we shoot for 32 members to eventually try to get the foot in the door in GvG.

I almost spilt my coffee; i laughed so hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

Then I realized while scheduling a TA match this weekend:

I have no clue what TA guilds do.

Seriously. Do they set match goals or what? I could do that easily, and we're still hopping from one public or borrowed TS server to another. I still have trouble getting everyone in the guild to get TS installed regardless of whether they have a mic or not.

...more comedy...

skillsbas8 · Mar 29, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

And now for a post that has a purpose.^

TA only guilds all fall apart due to the nature of TA at the moment. You can never have a true sense of TA domination due to the lack of obs or a ladder of some sort. Until these are implemented, I see no possible way a TA guild can survive. Also, glads are often non indicative of skill as they are obtained in RA, and half of "TA" guilds are just kids on vent counting 1,2,3 enter. Generally guilds focus on GvG and possibly HA, with TA being a way to spend some time in between while waiting for a team or such.

With that in mind, I believe a ladder or obs of some sort should be implemented in TA as the format is much different than both GvG and HA.

erk · Mar 29, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

TA is a great training ground for team communication and build synergy, these are both crucial ingredients for GvG and HA matches. Many of the top guilds use TA as a opportunity to observe their players, because it's harder to audit them in a hectic 8v8 match, and observe mode doesn't tell you the whole story.

Try and use TA as a place to practice Vent/TS communications, and calling.

After a while you will meet other players in TA that you might want to invite to join your guild, and eventually you should have a large enough collective of experienced TA players that you can branch out and try GvG for example.

Scrimbul · Mar 29, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Sure, DS. Next time I have a problem understanding build fundamentals, or how farming and never ever having set foot in a competitive arena with your guildmates even once relates to not sucking, I'll remember your Captain Obvious pearls of wisdom.

I mean clearly telling them 'Run this or lose and GTFO' works fine for a top 200 GvG or r5 glad guild just as well as it does one starting out. Wait, no, I'm wrong, that's just how Icy does things. That behavior tends to thin potentially decent players out of a guild faster than booting the PvErs who can't explain to me where farming icy dragon swords comes in to playing a decent dragon slash build, and don't care to learn to play the basic dslash build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

And now for a post that has a purpose.^

TA only guilds all fall apart due to the nature of TA at the moment. You can never have a true sense of TA domination due to the lack of obs or a ladder of some sort. Until these are implemented, I see no possible way a TA guild can survive. Also, glads are often non indicative of skill as they are obtained in RA, and half of "TA" guilds are just kids on vent counting 1,2,3 enter. Generally guilds focus on GvG and possibly HA, with TA being a way to spend some time in between while waiting for a team or such.

With that in mind, I believe a ladder or obs of some sort should be implemented in TA as the format is much different than both GvG and HA.

I'm not sure things will ever get to this point for TA, or get much further beyond where they are now before GW2 comes out. By the time they do I'll be playing Fury and curious if it will meet it's marketing campaign rather than praying GW2 recovers where GW's update schedule is slowly letting it slip further down a muddy slope.

That being said you're probably right that an observer mode and a simple challenge mode NPC for daily winner, not even a whole entire ladder, would separate TA from being merely RA deluxe. Of course you would still have to separate Gladiator points and make 'TA points' possibly dubbed Duelist's Points or something.

Agyar · Mar 30, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

TA guilds suck. TA guilds die quickly. TA guilds have a very boring guild-being.

they, obviously, wow, dont be shocked now, PLAY TA! by "playing TA" i dont mean, playing it for fun when 4 people are on - i mean actually farming gladiator points for your title. most dont care if its lame or original, they just farm.

some even make their own builds - but most prefer to simply steal.

ive tried a ta guild - its hard and not worth the effort, really. it gets boring easily. rather have an 'all-round-guild' and TA most of the time rather than being TA 'only'.

on a sidenote, the current ta meta is, lame. it is hard to win if you dont actually have good players - high ranked gladiators are already in a guild and will probably not join one, leading to many losses for unexperienced teams which will lead to rage. >_>

in the end, most TA guilds arent even being respected, they are just a bunch of lamers in everyones eyes that suck at "high-end pvp" so they TA only to think they are good at the game. ive heard this often, experienced this, and its pretty sad, but true.

Such a bitter post.

To answer the question, a "TA Guild" is just like any other guild - a bunch of people who joined the same guild because they gel and are into the same things. Quit could be considered a "TA Guild" but we have plans for more, but we all enjoy the small group dynamic of TA and it suits many of our busy schedules (and the varied timezones of the guild members) very well. At the moment we're more concerned about putting together a roster of people we enjoy playing as a goal, rather than prioritising GvG or HA play. Some of our members do these kind of activities and hopefully with some tailoring of our playbase we'll be able to play competitively in these areas in future (mainly reliant on being able to field the 6+ players for a good period of time).

I don't think it something to sneer at if people enjoy playing TA just for the sake of it. I really enjoy the 4v4 fast-paced PvP. Gladiator points aren't the primary goal, I left my desire to rewards to justify my gameplay behind in WoW. If I didn't, I'd be in RA cheesing points. Many of my guildies are in this same mindset (whether they also play RA or not).

As much as I'm trying to avoid the obvious flamebait in the last paragraph of your post, I'd like to suggest I don't really give a shit what you or anyone really thinks about my guild or "TA Guilds" in general. If you're so over that scene, why are you advertising your Glad rank, setting your location to a TA district and making appearances in these type of threads? In addition, you could probably replace "TA" with "HA" in your post and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to how it reads. If GvG is the only worthwhile competitive PvP for you, then go for that. Hell, I'd love to do some more GvG, hopefully when my schedule settles down a little I'll have time to puppy-dog-eyes my way into some guest spots (or perhaps we'll even be ready in Quit). But for the moment, I get my money's worth in TA. And I like it.

Edit: Oh yeah, I'm sure we'd all love it if they implemented some additional content for TA, such as a Ladder. Makes me a little sad they're lining that kind've improvement up for Hero Battles and neglecting a much older and (in my opinion) more interesting PvP area (hell, can you even consider HvH "PvP"?).

Divineshadows · Mar 30, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

TA guilds... TA. Where's divineshadows with the lock when you need him

There is valid discussion in this thread. I deleted the 2nd round of flames. This thread will get locked if the OP continues to participate in the flames.

moko · Mar 30, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

TA only guilds all fall apart due to the nature of TA at the moment. You can never have a true sense of TA domination due to the lack of obs or a ladder of some sort.

this is very true.

i remember, when the Hero Battle ladder was announced, everyone i more or less knew who TAed for competition level was crying for a long time. however, some i know are still doing it for the competition - and its a bit arrogant but looking at "our" winrates, "we" kinda know "we" are "top" anyways, so theres no official ladder needed to boost "our" egos. =P (i put the " for a reason because im usually part of those teams but do not think the same way, but mostly everyone else does.

)

Quote:

Until these are implemented, I see no possible way a TA guild can survive.

right n_n

Quote:

Also, glads are often non indicative of skill as they are obtained in RA, and half of "TA" guilds are just kids on vent counting 1,2,3 enter.

glads you see in RA with high glad titles dont EVER EVER TA, and wow, if you would actually go to team arenas sometimes (cant say for american districts); but euros, youll see that theres quite many glads that arent actually "kids". yes, some glads really are a skilless bunch of idiots (i had a glad5 that didnt know what wildblow was), but some are indeed very good players.

Quote:

With that in mind, I believe a ladder or obs of some sort should be implemented in TA as the format is much different than both GvG and HA.

no. please NO observer mode. the meta is so lame and boring already, please dont encourage more buildstealing. :'<

yesitsrob · Mar 30, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Most so called good TA guilds completely blow, if we're being honest. All the TA guilds used to trash talk each other about who was the best, so pathetic. And all the good guilds were all watching from the outside thinking "aw, cute, let them have their fun."

If there was a ladder, people would probably start taking it seriously instead of playing it for shits and giggles. Chances are you'd be far from the best - Let's face it, we've all seen how successful TA guilds have been in GVG, not very, in other words.

moko · Mar 30, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

If there was a ladder, people would probably start taking it seriously instead of playing it for shits and giggles. Chances are you'd be far from the best - Let's face it, we've all seen how successful TA guilds have been in GVG, not very, in other words.

whats the point in bringing up GVG? TA Guilds = TA, not GVG. no wonder they arent successful when they try it? its like PVE players trying PVP for the first time..kinda.

edit;

the OP actually started that there are PVE players, and that they learn in TA, at least the basics of PVP, so theyll have it easier in GVG. its not like they are all full time TA players that will randomly GVG.

so..in conclusion..just dont call it a 'TA guild'. =P

Dzan · Mar 30, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Most so called good TA guilds completely blow, if we're being honest. All the TA guilds used to trash talk each other about who was the best, so pathetic. And all the good guilds were all watching from the outside thinking "aw, cute, let them have their fun."

If there was a ladder, people would probably start taking it seriously instead of playing it for shits and giggles. Chances are you'd be far from the best - Let's face it, we've all seen how successful TA guilds have been in GVG, not very, in other words.

1. How would you know what good guilds were thinking? Not trying to flame SoF, but that is an awfully arrogant opinion to have when I've never lost to your guild in a TA match.

2. If there was a TA ladder I expect that most of the good TA guilds of old would have held respectable spots.

yesitsrob · Mar 30, 2007, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

1. How would you know what good guilds were thinking? Not trying to flame SoF, but that is an awfully arrogant opinion to have when I've never lost to your guild in a TA match.

2. If there was a TA ladder I expect that most of the good TA guilds of old would have held respectable spots.

1 - Because I do. And on beating SoF. woopidoo, I can't even recall the last time I went into TA with anything serious or wasn't grab 4 and go, in TA I've beaten guilds which are vastly better than we are - and also SoF is more than just 1 guild , I don't recall facing you, ever. On top of that, winning at TA is barely based on skill. I've lost to people running 4 necro/rits in there, or 4 paragons... they weren't skilled, that's for sure.

2 - I don't. I think more people would have played TA and run builds which are clearly too strong in forced 4v4 situations. It's not like you can beat things in TA by out manouvering it. If you don't have certain means to handle certain build you're going to have a hard time. Unless you are just that much better than them at the game in 32 skills there's a pretty good chance you'll lack some flexibility and the ability to beat everything thrown at you at some stage

There aren't even _that_ many TA guilds, obviously any TA guild that exists TA players will know about... And getting glad points in TA is practically the easiest thing ever, considering only about 1 in 20 teams you will face will be a challenge, a lot will be from RA, a lot will just be terrible.

I actually like TA at times, but let's be honest it's barely demanding on you as a player - the objective is pretty straight forward. Wipe the enemy team. And the meta in TA right now is so dull

moko · Mar 30, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

the objective is pretty straight forward. Wipe the enemy team. And the meta in TA right now is so dull

what you wanna do about that?

make every game last 20 mins with a flagstand, arena lord, base, NPCs?

add relic runs, just like priestmaps exist, and a killcount?

MAKE AN ALTAR MAP OMG OMG OMG?

on a serious note, thats unfortunately how TA is, and you cant really change it without changing TA as a whole.. games arent designed to really take long, theres one main fight (for most situations), and once people die its usually over..sometimes this fight is a 30 second battle, sometimes its actually 20 mins - when TA really becomes a challenge and fun.

Quote:

run builds which are clearly too strong in forced 4v4 situations.

in all the time ive played TA, i never happened to meet such a build. might helping my mind a bit?

Quote:

On top of that, winning at TA is barely based on skill. I've lost to people running 4 necro/rits in there, or 4 paragons... they weren't skilled, that's for sure.

well, you do have a point - on the other side, its a good self ownage. if you were actually skilled, you could easily beat those.

of course, sometimes your build is just designed so you cant possible win, but then you failed at creating a proper, versatile build.

Quote:

And getting glad points in TA is practically the easiest thing ever, considering only about 1 in 20 teams you will face will be a challenge, a lot will be from RA, a lot will just be terrible.

gogo inter dis? ive had hours where ive had a GOOD team every second game there.

Quote:

And the meta in TA right now is so dull

im still praising for some minor skill balances that might change something, although i dont see anything happen. :S